Can auditor give suggestions during an audit?
Just i think on it that, can auditor give suggestion during audit to auditee?
As per my thinking " YES"
Comment on this
Thank you
Sudarshan
Auditors, should avoid doing suggestions. They are supposed to look for opportunities for continuos improvement, but they don´t have to tell you what to do, they must tell you where you are not doing thinks ok and why, but not necesarily how to solve it. It can contribute to misunderstandings, as this auditor might not visit you again, and the next auditor might not agree with the suggestion. So any decision about your process should be well documented and based on facts. If any auditor suggest something, you might take it into consideration, just if it is well documented.
Obviously an auditor should contribute to the company with their observations (not suggestions), they are not a consultant.
Regards,
FSSM
I also agree with FSSM and As Nur,The auditor is supposed to look for objective evidence,give observations and not to comment on issues not in the audit plan or give suggestions on what that should be done or what that was supposed to have been done.
Regards,
Jeremy
Sometimes it depends what you mean by suggestion IMO.
For example, I remember early on in my career having a long argument with an auditor on the subject of validating CCPs. She issued a general nonconformity for incorrect validation although I had supplied pages of corroborative data to support the case. All attempts for clarification were politely evaded so I eventually asked "What do you expect to see when you audit other people for this aspect?" Answer was "a reference". Case closed.
Rgds / Charles.C
As an auditor, Iam not allowed to do consulting activities.
One suggestion about how to solve a problem can be seen as consulting.
Auditors are however allowed to clarify the Standard/requirement. And the interpretation of the auditor will naturally be part of this clarification.
As an auditor, I see al lot of companies and also a lot of methods to fullfill the requirements. During the audit tour I will make remarks to the company for continue improvement. I try to avoid consulting/advising. These remarks can include suggestions. I always make sure that I give 3 examples/suggestions about how to solve an issue. in this way it is no consulting. The company it self has to decide which way to follow. Further these remarks/suggestions are only given oral and will not be documented in the report.
Dear all,
As an auditor, Iam not allowed to do consulting activities.
One suggestion about how to solve a problem can be seen as consulting.
Auditors are however allowed to clarify the Standard/requirement. And the interpretation of the auditor will naturally be part of this clarification.
As an auditor, I see al lot of companies and also a lot of methods to fullfill the requirements. During the audit tour I will make remarks to the company for continue improvement. I try to avoid consulting/advising. These remarks can include suggestions. I always make sure that I give 3 examples/suggestions about how to solve an issue. in this way it is no consulting. The company it self has to decide which way to follow. Further these remarks/suggestions are only given oral and will not be documented in the report.
I think Madam says it best. There is a fine line between "suggestions" and "consulting" and in the end it is the company itself that has to decide on an action. Allowing an auditor to tell you what to do without your own research is dangerous because as FSSM suggested, different auditors have different views. And as Charles suggests there are even different views on what constitues a "suggestion".
You need to be able to explain why you made your decision, and if the answer is "an auditor told me to do it that way" than you may have missed something.
I had an ISO audit where the auditor observed my work instructions and "observed" or "suggested" they were not located in the best spot for the operators. I spoke with the operators who explained why they had chosen to put the work instructions where they were and returned to the auditor to let him know we would not be moving them. There are many varying opinions on a simple thing like how to handle work instructions but the only one that matters is the one that works for you as it should be with any matter.
TS
A consultant can give suggestions but not the auditor.
Hello friends
Just i think on it that, can auditor give suggestion during audit to auditee?
As per my thinking " YES"
Comment on this
Thank you
Sudarshan
Sudarshan,
am still trainig and in the few audits that i have been privellaged to be part, i have been advised not to give any form of advice during and after an audit unless if done privately, at a consultancy level and in this case should declare interest in future audits.
However this is hard as at times advice wil come out unknowingly but its standard practice for auditors not to give advice during audits/inspections.
Sthembiso
As an auditor, auditor can not give any suggestions to auditee because his role is not do give consultancy work for the organization during his surveillance audit
Thanks
A good auditor can add value to the audit buy suggesting solutions (Not making recommendations)
I used to have a 9001 auditor that when raising non-conformances or observations I used to ask "Can you suggest a way of resolving this?" He would tell me in a way that wasn't making a suggestion but gave me an idea of the solution "I have seen people do this in such a way"
Regards,
Tony
I like the symbiotic relationship (investment?) which you hv established. Perhaps auditors share a common genus with "us" after all.
Unfortunately, there is clearly a divergence in published viewpoints on this subject, eg consider the two (+) and (-) extracts below which I borrowed from books on the subject.
audit_suggestions.png 60.13KB 31 downloads
audit_suggestions_2.png 35.72KB 26 downloads
One could almost be tempted to use the first one (from the "certified HACCP auditor’s handbook") as a validation for help.
As a further practical example of a seemingly official use of “help”, try this reproduction of an actual food audit report in Scotland.
http://www.falkirk.g...66-FHy-0208.pdf
Amazingly friendly feeling generated although it doesn’t seem to state whether the overall result was a rejection or not. Maybe the audit frequency was changed to weekly.
Rgds / Charles.C
Auditee: How would I do that then?
Auditor: I have seen other companies who use a matrix with this and that and it works quite well.
Auditee: Ahh I see.
Is that against the rules? Consulting? Or value added auditing?
If my auditor didn’t do that I'd get one that did.
Regards,
Simon
Interesting discussion. I always think, that technically, our company paid the certification body, to check through their auditor, whether our system is fit with the standard, or the opposite one. So, why I cant "communicating" with their auditor?
If an auditor sets a minor finding, and I ask him/her about my plan of corrective actions, is it considered as asking a "suggestion" or "consultation"? If it yes, and its forbidden, then why I should bother doing some corrective actions if in the end there is a chance our auditor wont accept it?
But I am fully aware, that it would be ridiculous if an auditor gives a blatant input for us, to fix the findings, without being asked. It will be the same as a bunch of corrupt politicians!
Regards,
Arya
@Simon: Bend it over, yeah, rocks!
What do the auditors have to say on this topic??
during the audit definetly no suggestions should be even expected from auditor. The auditor's task is to do an evaluation of existing situation. Making suggestions might turn rather painful to auditors reputation because any clause of any standard could be applied different in different organizations. To give suggestions is task of consultants (who quite often say what you already know).
Thanks for Comments
Standards says "Auditor can not give suggestion"
But some times auditor raise one of the issue which you cannot justify or clearly understand what he/she saying that time you needs to clarify how to tackle or solve that issue. that time auditor comment or say some thing, this means auditor not give any advice but as his point of view he can suggest/clarify that issue.
Ex. Pesticide to be tested in product.
In this issue no any standard give parameter of pesticide for particular product
that time how that problem will solve because auditor raise issue testing of pesticide but which parameter to be test that was not clarify.
any grammatical error forgive me....
Sudarshan
i think Simon got it spot on with the i have seen it done like this approach to suggestion.
Regards,
Simon
Just to add ,an audit is NOT an interpretation of what the auditor thinks is right or wrong but how far the organisation meets the codes requirement.
Regards,
Jeremy
My opinion is "NO".
Auditor and Certification body/register can not provide any consultancy to Auditee according to the following standard's requirement.
Clause 5.2.7 The certification body shall not certify a management system on which a client has received management system consultancy or internal audits, where the relationship between the consultancy organization and the certification body poses an unacceptable threat to the impartiality of the certification body.